This year, 21 students are in the Rotman JD/MBA— more than twice as many as last year, and there are good reasons for that. There are new incentives for JD “combiners” such as a generous scholarship to soften the tuition blow as well as a waived of the GMAT for applicants with an LSAT over 165. There have also been major upgrades for all MBA students this year including a snazzy new building for classes, study and research and, more importantly, a thoroughly revamped core curriculum. Past issues of UV have shown, generally, a sense of satisfaction with the JD/MBA from students involved, but should you combine?
The answer, of course, is “it depends”, but on what? The MBA is by all accounts a tough program with undoubtedly great rewards for those with the right skill and interest sets, but there are lots of factors to consider before making your decision. Some current members of the 2014 and 2015 classes weigh in on what to think about.
1. Workload
If you thought 1L was a busy year, MBA is almost certainly more so. “It is arguably easier to procrastinate in law school than the MBA, since there are a lot of deliverables and late nights with group work”, says a student. It will make you feel, says Pedram Moussavi, a 2nd year JD/MBA, like you’re “running on a barrel while reciting the first 50 digits of Pi. It’s worthwhile in the end as you’ll have killer legs, though.” Jonathan Bega, A 3rd year, agrees. “The first year of Rotman MBA sucks. There’s no two-ways about it. The workload is immense, intense and utterly exhausting…. When I was a 1l, I rolled my eyes when upper year [JD/MBA’s] told me how hard they worked, and I assumed they were exaggerating. Then I got here…. We’re not kidding. Rotman does not seem to understand that an MBA is about networking and job preparation as opposed to busywork.” He adds, “for the JD/MBA to be valuable, though, you have to love to hustle… It is a personality fit. First and foremost, you have to understand who you are.” Moreover, you will learn a lot, and there is real payoff. Sarit Pandya, a 2nd year JD/MBA, notes that “some classes are taught with a very straightforward structure. If you do the work, you will do well”.
However, the workload is not entirely “No pain, no gain”. “I think the MBA is conceptually less difficult [than law school], but they overwork you with work that… is usually not useful for learning concepts”, says one 2nd year. “To say that the new program is rigorous and fast paced is an outrageous understatement”, says one 2nd year JD/MBA. “Since the new program started—which involves semesters rolling into each other with no reading weeks, disorganized exam schedules and 3 times the work, I’ve seen people crying in the halls on the regular and grown men and women having full blown stress-driven meltdowns. I never saw this stuff at law school and we’re supposed to be the crazy stress addicts! I think the MBA is a great program, but the new Rotman curriculum needs a reality check.” Adds another student— “whoever is in charge of planning the year, i.e. when exams should be, when holidays should be, etc, is totally incompetent. No days between exams, no reading week… come on, son”.
2. Coursework
Feelings about the above workload are correlated with opinions about the courses themselves. Most Rotman courses, particularly during the first year core program, are at least partially quantitative. “I dislike how the program is more heavily geared toward those with a quant or engineering backgrounds and is softer on the strategic thinking and communications side”, says one student. Another, however, points out that “the program is about learning how to administer businesses. It may shock you to learn that businesses include operations management accounting, finance, marketing, leadership and a whole host of things you never dreamed of devoting late nights to. You need to either enjoy this or be prepared for it”. They add that “The JD/MBA requires an enormous amount of versatility. The range of skills goes from self-reading mountains of detail oriented cases and writing concise exams to using quantitative analysis and negotiating with older and more experienced group members. Being comfortable with leaving your comfort zone is a must”.
Some courses get largely great marks for workload and content versus learning, such as finance, micro and macroeconomics. “They were extremely interesting”, says, well, most people I talked to. Good marks also go to the data courses, to strategy (from some people, sometimes), and to in class and extracurricular case competitions, a phenomenal opportunity to read, analyze and “crack” live or old business cases and then present your findings to industry experts. Practical, relevant coursework is also a plus— JD/MBAs can look forward to real life problems, complex simulations and cases written well after 1885.
Be prepared to learn complex computer and data manipulation skills, sometimes on the fly. “If you’re going to make me use Excel in every damn class”, says one student, “tell me that the Excel pre-course is mandatory and important so I don’t sleep through it the whole time!” Others feel Rotman structured the skill training well, though. “I really enjoyed the modeling and data courses”, says Pedram, on the “foundations” term. “I feel it was great to focus specifically on developing those skills before having to apply them to more practical problems in later courses.
Other courses were, for most, largely just frustrating. A stats exam we were explicitly told would be straightforward ( to make up for months of grueling and lengthy assignments) was so difficult that many students left pages blank, and courses like Leading People in Organizations have left some classmates frustrated, feeling they only get marks for “how well we did what the professor wanted”. Even courses like finance have some issues—a student notes that “we had to complete assignments for every lecture before the material was even taught!”
3. Your Status as a “People” Person
Life as a JD/MBA includes mandatory participation grades, long hours of group assignments with a group you do not choose, frequent presentations and even more frequent networking events. “I hope you like socializing or are at least willing to stretch yourself to go out often, because MBA is not worth it if you don’t”, says a student. The good news, though, is that the program makes it easy, valuable and actually really fun if you are willing to put yourself out there. “Smaller classrooms of 60 students are great for both learning lecture style and for not feeling afraid of participating”, says Pedram. “Teamwork was not as bad as everyone said it would be, and I learned a lot from it”, says Sarah Elharrar, a 2nd year JD/MBA. I too should add that I’ve both actively loved teamwork and learned a lot from the process of working closely with people with a broad range of skill sets — I’ve worked with people with years of career experiences in engineering, finance, consulting, professional public speaking, management and even professional poker.
The “people” also provide a springboard to innumerable career options, should you seek them out. Sarit says “if you want to learn, Rotman will give you 101 opportunities. The number of case competitions, for example, was awesome… and speaker series are everywhere. It’s nice to go to a school where there is always something going on”. Says Jon, “if you are the kind of person who is willing to take initiative in setting out your own career path and who is able to send out cold-emails and go for coffee dates with people in the fields which interest you, there is not a single set of degrees which will open more doors than the JD/MBA. The alumni network you gain access to is incredible –people in all fields of law, venture capital, consulting, investment banking, marketing, private equity, and quite a few wildly successful entrepreneurs. The best part is, they are a tightknit group … I have met with people for coffee who were worth more money than God and were so busy that I needed to book three weeks in advance. They have given me advice and mentoring; one even gave me a summer job.”
4. The Day to Day
Some elements of JD/MBA student life are, day to day, pretty fantastic. The new building is modern and spacious, although one student notes that “it will look dated in no time— look at Robarts! Brutalism was cool then, too”. High tech classrooms with the capacity to video record lectures for missed days “really improve the learning process”, says Pedram. There are also lots of group study rooms (although some students express frustration that there aren’t quite enough of them for peak season) available 24/7. “One of the great things about the new building is all the study space”, Pedram adds, “although I do wish there was more room for individual study”. Additionally, professors and administration work to make the textbook situation fair and economical. Most course materials are available online and some are subsidized. Says Sarit, “these are good people!”
Some things are more similar to law school. The Exchange, Rotman’s cafeteria, offers significantly more and better quality food and drink options than Grounds of Appeal, but be prepared to pay exorbitant amounts for some pretty basic items—cookies and milk come to $7.00, to which one student aptly says “nah son”. Expect similarly few miracles and a great deal more frustration in the wireless department. “I am absolutely amazed they couldn’t get this right”, one student says. Says another, “internet connectivity (or lack thereof), is absolutely ridiculous. It’s been 7 months. Like… seriously?”
Also expect to see some kinks in the new program get worked out with less foresight than seems reasonable. For example, a student notes that “in a recent marketing midterm, the range of result was 23 points, while the same exam apparently yielded only a 10 point range at Carnegie Mellon.” Additionally, a fire alarm went off during an Accounting exam, and, with what was evidently no contingency plan, students ultimately endured lengthy administrative flip-flopping while the program decided if, when and how to schedule a rewrite. “The handling of this issue was pretty impressive… for its ineptitiude”, says a classmate.
Additionally, some feel that both Rotman and the law school could do more to accommodate the growing JD/MBA class. “I feel like we’ve become a legitimate, sizeable student group and not just a bunch of weird law students talking about financial statements now”, says Pedram,”yet the law school does not factor us into practically any decision, whether social (scheduling law ball two days before finals) or academic (having second year advisory sessions during our final exams)”. Notes another, “Rotman exams end, for some of us, just 48 hours before summer jobs begin”.
The meaning of it all
The bottom line of all this comes down to what you want, who you are and what you’re investing in by doing a deeply challenging and very expensive program. Says Jon, “If the JD is expensive, the JD/MBA is obscene. You will be looking at $45k/year over your next three years. Some of this will be offset with scholarships, and there are a number of merit-based scholarships available for upper years at Rotman, but do not delude yourself – it’s expensive even before you take the opportunity cost of foregoing a year of work into account.”
Given this, you need to think about why you’re doing the program. “The value-add to being a corporate lawyer is only moderate”, says Jon. “True, we do get hired disproportionately in 1l and OCIS, and understanding how future clients think is valuable for those who lack a business background, but most U of T students are smart enough to gain enough business knowledge through osmosis if motivated to be a good business lawyer… Ultimately, if you dream is to be in Big Law™, I wouldn’t recommend the program. There are benefits, but the costs are quite high”. Says another student, though, “measuring [the value of] an education solely based on monetary payoff in the short-term is a future exercise for JD/MBAs going into business law upon graduation. Unless you start another venture with your fellow MBAs on the side, your best case scenario is to increase your chances to get into a better law firm. The monetary payoff comes much further down the road when you realize your group member is the President or VP of a successful company.” “A lot of the value comes from the network of future clients you meet as classmates”, adds another JD/MBA.
If you’re thinking outside law, be aware that there are few opportunities after 1st year MBA in the business field, but that this is not forever. “You will be a persona non grata in the eyes of all HR people during your first year of the MBA, while many of your MBA colleagues will get the jobs you want. You will not get an investment banking or a consulting job in your second-year summer, as all firms understand that you are a massive flight risk”, says Jon. However, know that abundant opportunities for prestigious, varied and exciting business careers will be within reach well before graduation should you put yourself out there and get comfortable with less formalized hiring processes. “You have to understand who you are”, says Jon. “If you are shy …or believe that having a coffee chat with a perfect stranger in an industry is …hell, then do not do the JD/MBA…. If you are the kind of person who enjoys hustling or are willing to learn how to do it,[however], the JD/MBA is the best set of degrees you can possibly possess. You will impress employers, have access to an incredible network of people, and gain a lot of practical knowledge through the grind. The JD/MBA is the best decision I have ever made, but it’s not for everyone”.
