The kings are dead, long live the queens!
For our final article as Editors-in-Chief of Ultra Vires, Volume 23, we sat down with Matt Brown and Patrick Hartford, UV EiCs of Volume 13 and 14, respectively. Under their tenure as EiCs, UV saw many changes including a new look, logo, and the website that we still use today. While their hair might be a bit different (Matt: It’s just me. Patrick still has those luscious locks), the two remained passionate about their time leading the law school’s student newspaper, doughnuts and all. As we say goodbye to our reign as EiCs, it was a pleasure to learn more from the greats that preceded us.
This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.
Ultra Vires (UV): What are you most proud of during your tenure as EiCs?
Matt Brown (MB): Hearing from you guys made me swell with pride because it means that the institution still exists. Like anything else in student life, there is such a quick turnover of students that the institutional memory can be pretty short. Here’s the thing: I’m not worried about the fucking journal continuing because absolute keener, kiss-ass, resume-stuffers are always going to want to volunteer for that pointless job. But UV is an institution that is really just there to augment the joy of student life. It’s not good for the resume; it has no ancillary benefit other than making U of T Law a great place to go and a fun place to be a student. Looking back, ten years later, those are the things that I cherish: all those really rich parts of student life. So I am so proud and happy that I was able to pass the torch to people like you, who are, for no reason other than it’s fun and rewarding, continuing to do this!
Patrick Hartford (PH): What were we most proud of? It was always building on the years before. Matt built on the work that Aaron [Christoff] and Abrar [Huq] did before him, and I built on the work Matt did. It was nice to be able to go back to writing a mix of stuff that was fun to read, fun to put together, and also being able to say what we wanted to say. To criticize things we wanted to criticize.
I was very proud of how much we put in place that is still there: the graphics, the format, and doing more investigative journalism which was really at the heart of founding Ultra Vires ten years before us. When I was in your shoes, one of the things I did was reach out to the EiC from ten years before, Melissa Kuger, and she came and spoke to the group. So we kinda came full circle.
Like Matt said, nobody was there to put UV on their resume. Ironically, I think that’s what makes it something deserving to be put on the resume, because the work we did there was sometimes some of the best, interesting work that people did. Everybody who was there really wanted to be there, and was volunteering their time because they cared. I’m proud that it is still going and it is still true to that. And also that you still have the office and the giant table.
UV: Who made the hole in the office’s wall?
PH: The hole in the wall was made before we got there. As a tribute to Shawshank Redemption, I wanted to make sure there was a poster of Rita Hayworth covering it. The one day the air conditioning repairman came by and said, “Oh, I bet there is a hole behind that poster of Rita Hayworth” was the proudest day of my life. Finally, I’ve been seen.
MB: Do you guys still do the rankings of faculty members based on student reviews?
UV: We don’t. We tried to, but the Faculty doesn’t like us accessing the reviews.
MB: Oh, I know. I remember it was a months-long thing. This is what I like about UV. It often leads you into conflict with Faculty and administration. Which, in some ways, is not what you would be doing if you were solely focusing on building your resume. But anyways, I think what we agreed to do is only put it in the print issue and not online. The Faculty’s point was that, “yes, this is accessible to students. Any student, if they want, can individually go and look this up in the library.” The whole point was to dissuade students from doing that. We thought this was a great service that UV can offer… I mean, it was a bit troll-ish to do it as a ranking, but people fucking love rankings.
PH: It was part of UV too. Even when you ran into conflict with some of the admin, learning how to do that in a way that was constructive, and respectful, and maintained relationships was important. Law is a contentious profession and you butt heads with people in a lot of ways. Despite all the things we did, there was still a pretty good relationship between the students and Faculty overall.
MB: I think the key is doing good work. If you bring a seriousness and purpose to it, you do earn some respect.
PH: And the Faculty has different perspectives on some of these issues too. You would have some profs that agreed on some points, and some that agreed on others. And they were part of that conversation as well, sometimes writing guest pieces. It was really a vehicle for some of the big conversations to have about the law school. I’m so happy that it is still going strong.
UV: How has UV helped in your careers, if at all? We’re very sure that UV comes up often in your work at the Superior Court or when you’re clerking for Justice Abella.
PH: I found UV came up a lot. When I interviewed at the [Supreme Court] or to summer downtown, they didn’t want to hear about editing citations for Law Review any more than I wanted to talk about it. They wanted to talk about the sketch we put on for Law Follies and what they did in law school. And even with Justice Abella, she knew about what UV was publishing and the conversations that were had there. In terms of my career more directly, I took a very strange route by starting a business. The experience of UV and taking risks and working with a group of really cool people to put out a product that I was really proud of definitely stuck with me. The fact that you can do something fun and maybe weren’t necessarily sure where it was going to end up is something that I really, really loved about UV.
MB: I can confidently say that it has had zero impact, positive or negative, on my career. But man, there are other reasons to do things in life.
UV: We talked a bit about the new look for the paper, the new logo. You two mentioned how you hired an external layout editor. Would you mind chatting about that?
PH: I think it was my year that we did that. We needed someone to do layout and there is such a tendency in law school to think we can do everything ourselves, and yet OCAD is a walk away, and there are some really talented and amazing people. It was really a treat to work with them and the pride they took in setting up the paper. I now have opinions on kerning… I didn’t even know that was a word. Working with people who were really passionate about layout was good for the paper and good to build bridges so it’s not completely insular.
UV: Shifting into something a bit more serious, we noticed that there was a 2013 Tuition Special as well as a tuition petition around that time, when tuition was approaching the 30K mark. For reference, tuition at U of T Law is still increasing, we’re sitting around 33K now
MB: BAG ALERT… sorry, I should not be allowed on TikTok, I’m far too old.
PH: Oh god no.
UV: It’s MAJOR bag alert.
PH: I have no idea what you’re talking about.
UV: Wait—why are you on TikTok?
PH: Why isn’t UV on TikTok? I think that’s the real question.
MB: I’m so sorry for interrupting.
UV: It’s okay! We also noticed that you mention mental health is an ongoing concern. Every time we read the archives, we’re struck by how recurring the themes are (mental health, tuition, accessibility), year after year. And it seems like not much has changed at all. Is there a way for UV to add more fuel to the fire for student advocacy?
PH: UV has an important role to play, representing the voice of the students. It’s a bigger conversation than just one law school—these are things happening across the province and the profession at large. Institutional memory being short is a problem, so I think that having a newspaper and those archives is important not just for the issue you release on any given day but for being part of that record.
I hope there have been some improvements. I wrote a lot about tuition and I think that it is unfortunate that people graduate with so much debt that they have more limited opportunities since they have to focus on paying that back as opposed to other, valuable types of work that don’t necessarily pay particularly well. I think that there is a societal benefit to people being able to learn about the law, even if they’re not necessarily going to practice it. I’m not up to date on what [financial aid] programs are offered, but just as a sort of policy-level, I definitely think that tuition should be kept affordable for people who want to go in another direction than working in a big downtown firm.
MB: This is going to sound self-aggrandizing, but you know the saying, journalism is the first draft of history. I feel like UV is an important historical record for all types of student advocates. Because of that short institutional memory, it’s really the only place you can go to realize that many of these fights have been had before.
PH: I remember how much work the team put in. Leo Elias did a lot of digging to put together a lot of work in the tuition special. We went through all the Faculty Council notes, because there is a lot of stuff that is on record, and documented what people said at the time and checked if it still holds true. I agree with Matt; it is important to have a record of those things, no matter how the situation plays out.
UV: To wrap up, we have some fun questions. Matt, Sabrina was wondering, as she still has a year left of law school to go, what was it like ruling UV from the grave and should we revive the Editor-in-Chief Emeritus role?
MB: I insist that you do. UV is incredibly fun to be a part of, but being Editor-in-Chief means you actually have to do things. Imagine all of the joy of hanging out with people and putting your words and opinions out into the world, without any of the drawbacks of having to send people emails following up on a deadline that’s passed. So, you gotta do it. It was one of the things that made my year awesome.
UV: Annecy will unfortunately be graduating, but she plans to come back whenever there are doughnuts on distribution day.
PH: I’m glad you guys still do the doughnuts. I have a fun story about ordering that. One night I had some friends in town, we went out, and next thing you know, it’s last call and 2:30 in the morning. And I remembered I still had to place that order for the next day to pick up the doughnuts because the paper was coming out. So I went to the Tim Hortons on Bloor, the 24-hour one, and I placed this order after having been drinking for essentially seven hours, saying excuse me, yes, I would like 12 dozen doughnuts. And they were like, yeah, sure you do…
UV: Did the doughnuts come on time?
PH: They did! It’s impressive that I came to the law school on time.
UV: We haven’t done the doughnuts in a while because of the pandemic. We’re really excited to get back to what UV should be about: eating junk food and reading some law school tea. So Matt, do you still believe that Patrick was a “perennial fucking disappintment” of an EiC, now having seen what’s he done?
MB: Patrick is one of the most impactful and successful EiCs that UV has ever had, but, frankly, I haven’t been reading enough UV, so he might have been eclipsed this year. Who knows?
PH: Well, thank you. I can only take credit for taking the torch from Matt and following his lead. I think that having him as Emeritus was a good way to have the same energy in the office and build off the work he did.
UV: Do you have any parting advice you’d like to give to the next EiCs? We haven’t hired them yet but hopefully will get some applications soon.
PH: Ooh, applications, things have gotten formal.
UV: There weren’t applications back then?
PH: I think it was more like the way the Sith picks the next one in the line.
The advice I would have is: ten years from now, when the UV EiCs reach out to you, definitely think in advance about what you put on the record in a recorded interview. Aside from that, enjoy it, because UV was some of the most fun I had in law school.
MB: Far be it from me to give you advice on what you should do, but I think what makes UV successful is a pretty dogmatic focus on whatever might be interesting to law students reading it. Which means, no friggin Canadian politics op-eds, or anything that doesn’t have a very direct relationship to law students. That is what makes people pick up the paper and read it. And that’s the most important thing at the end of the day.
PH: Do you guys still do the feature where you take people’s personal statements and match them against where they’re going?
UV: Yeah!
MB: Yes, oh my god, that’s my favourite. I’m so happy to hear that.
UV: Was that your guys’ idea?
MB: No, it was Will Morrison’s. He did it the year before me. I’m so glad it remains a tradition; it’s the fucking best. It just encapsulates so many amazing things about U of T Law that is always very funny. Anyways, so proud of you guys—this is amazing!
PH: Yeah, this is fantastic!
MB: Very well done! And I can’t believe Sabrina works at the Toronto Star [for her media law externship]… I was saying how UV is completely pointless from a career perspective, and you’re living proof that maybe this is not the case. And Annecy, where will you be articling?
UV: Annecy will be articling at a litigation firm, Polley Faith.
MB: My locker at the gym used to be beside Andrew Faith’s.
UV: What a claim to fame! That’s what you’re going to post on your TikTok?
PH: Even I don’t go on TikTok, that’s where I draw the line.
MB: I guess you’re just happy to be completely irrelevant, Patrick, that’s fine.
PH: Thanks, Matt. My only request is that if any of my quotes are going to get me fired, just let me know in advance…
Editor’s Note: On March 27, 2013, Hartford wrote in his Letter from the Editor that he hopes ten years from then, the Editor in Chief of UV finds his Tuition Special in the archives and sees it as a turning point in student and administration relations. It hasn’t been the full ten years, but we leave our roles as EiCs with a similar message. We tried our best to cover the stories students wanted, and needed, to hear the most. From a student’s human rights’ claim against the Faculty to an almost year-long investigation into the budget, we covered a lot of ground that we’re immensely proud of. We too hope that ten years from now, UV will be even better than how we left it. Whether that’s increased investigative journalism or turning the paper into 90 percent Diversions, we’re excited to see it grow and grateful to have been part of its journey.
